22: Two Kinds of Warm Beverages

Ethan drinks tea and Darby puts up a job listing! https://angel.co/company/lead-honestly/jobs/1743870-head-of-marketing

Ethan: Good afternoon.

Darby: afternoon.

I'm trying to Ethan method
of have coffee during this

Ethan: I'm actually
drinking tea this time.


Darby: Keep changing it on

Ethan: I know,

Darby: How am I supposed to keep up

Ethan: I'm a man of many
tastes, both coffee and tea.

Darby: the two kinds of warm beverages?

Ethan: That's all right.

Never any other liquid?

Mostly coffee?

Darby: No water.

Not at

Ethan: No.

Darby: Yeah.


What's what's going on this week?

Ethan: Oh man.

It's been a good week.

I picked up the new, the, I
picked up the new 16 inch.

Macro-Pro with a M one max processor.

Yeah, it's super nice.

Darby: Yeah,

Ethan: Yeah, the thing I like
the most is the screen actually.

It's like a super performing
laptop and all that, but the

screen is just looks so pretty.

yeah, it's amazing.

Darby: I've heard really good
things about the screen, which I

didn't like expect that to be one
of the kind of standout things.

Obviously it's so fast and
everything else, but, that,

that is like, oh, this too.

Also it looks nice.


so, do you run benchmarks?

Ethan: yes, I've been this week
loading the, my day jobs project on

it to do benchmarks, because it's a
significantly bigger elixir project

than what I have for my side stuff.

seen about a 50% performance in.


so from comp, so this is
all, this is elixir, right?

So from compiling code to running
tight checks, to running the linter,

turning tests about 50% faster,

Darby: Well, okay.

Ethan: the kicker here is it's
not apples to apples, even.

Erling has a, I in time.

That is not enabled on
Apple's Silicon yet.


So the Intel chip that I benchmark it
against has the Git running, which when

they introduced, that was like a, I don't
know, 20 to 30% bump in performance Intel.

Yeah, it was definitely
non-trivial for sure.

and it's just not present
on the Amman chips.

So that's even running
with a slight handicap.

they do, yeah.

In the, main build overlaying.

they have this running for apple Silicon.

So if I'm trying to build from
source now so that I can test it

out, but yeah, it's pretty sweet.

Darby: Seems worth it then for sure.


Ethan: Yeah.

Darby: Nice.

did you, how did you acquire yours?

You just go to a store and get it?

Ethan: I did.


Yeah, I did.

It was actually pretty funny.

Like I had heard people mentioning that
they could just go into an apple store,

like go into a store, like people used
to do back in the day, and purchase

it that way or wait months to get it.

so I went to my local
apple store and they were.

And he's like, but we actually get
several shipments a day of them.

So check your, the apple store app and
see it's like, okay, well, whatever.

And when got lunch came home, pulled
up the app and it was in stock.

So I bought it through the app and then
went back to the apple store to get it.

Darby: That's awesome.

Ethan: Yeah.

Darby: Nice.


Ethan: yeah, otherwise it was like middle
of December was what apple was quoting me.

Darby: Okay.

Ethan: I'm way too impatient for that.


Darby: yeah.

I mean, you know, look at, think about
all the inefficiency you're going

to have between now and then, right?

Ethan: yeah.

Darby: Like you'd just be wasting hours.

so I ordered mine one
and I don't have it yet.

I ordered it on launch day, but I
like, I waited until everyone like

ordered it right after the keynote.

I ordered mine at like five.

Ethan: Okay.

Darby: like everyone got the
first batches I'm supposed to,

I'm supposed to get it tomorrow.

but I've been like checking the
tracking and it's like really slow.

Like, usually it's super fast when
you I've done this before order 'em

and it's like, once they ship it,
it gets here in a couple of days.

But this is like taking a weird
route through like Asia to get here.

So I don't know what's going
on, but hopefully it gets here

tomorrow and, and I can find.

Ethan: Yeah.

Darby: I should've just kind
of a store like you did.

Ethan: don't you live really
close to an apple store to.

Darby: Yeah.


I go by it pretty much every
day when I come to work.

I think though, like, I didn't
know the trick about how they

get lots of shipments every day.

I just assumed like, oh, they're out.

So they're just going to be
out, you know, for six months.

But, you know, I didn't, I wasn't going
to get any more done this week anyway, so

Ethan: Oh yeah.

I ended up wasting a ton of
time this week because of this.

So all the time I saved in
compilation is now wasted because

I had to set up a new laptop.

Darby: Yeah.

Ethan: Yeah.

Darby: that's the debt you
have to pay down over the next

Ethan: Yeah.


Darby: get to.

Ethan: I said, I got it last
Friday, so about a week.

and it took me, I don't know,
six hours to get it all set up.

Probably usually takes me less than
an hour to set up a new laptop.

Darby: you basically like went from
scratch, not copied stuff over.



Ethan: Yeah.

So I have like a new laptop script that I
run that changes a bunch of settings and

it sells a bunch of Homebrew packages.

And then I have like a
normal developer or whatever.

Like I have a doc file repo that
has all my configuration and stuff,

but I run some non-standard tools.

So I run fish instead of ZSH fished
and not install correctly on the . I

think it installed like it was
installing into a Linux environment.

Darby: Oh,

Ethan: a bunch of like shell scripts.

They just straight out, we're not worried.

my favorite was I posted a
picture of this on Twitter.

Actually, all my Homebrew stuff
would work so I could run, get,

get goes through Homebrew, but I
couldn't run like cat S cat CD.

Like none of those were actual
commands I could run, but you

know, I can do a getting Saul

Darby: It's really hard to
use a computer without CD.

Ethan: very, yeah, you'd be surprised.

And so I messed around with that
forever and I could not figure it out.

And so I just, I went back to CSH,
which also means that I had to yeah.

Customize it.

So I can't just, we can't just use
normal ZSH I got to make a fancy, so

Darby: Okay.

And you had not had an
M one before, sorry.


Ethan: I went from a quad core,
I five to a 10 core and one max.

Darby: That's a

Ethan: Massive improvement.


Darby: one other question I had
is does it ship with Monterrey?

Ethan: Yes.

Darby: Okay, cool.

cool, cool.

Ethan: It ships with, the
not point release though.

So you immediately have a multi
gigabyte update waiting for you.

Darby: oh, nice.

Ethan: Yeah, at least mine didn't.

I don't know.

Darby: okay.

Probably they're probably the same, cause
I, I don't want to go through process.

and so I was thinking about
what I was going to do.

but my main machine is an animal.

'cause I got the MacBook air on
one last year and I already paid

that cost of like going through all

the setting up stuff.

So, yeah.

So I'm just, I think I'm just
going to copy it all over.

And so I upgraded the Monterey just
so that I would be like on the latest

version, so I didn't have to upgrade
and then do the copy or whatever.

So, so hopefully I can just like
shift over to it and not have.

Spend a bunch of time because things
already work, but it was definitely

painful last year to, to get that going.

Ethan: Especially the last year two
when didn't like a bunch of stuff.

It wasn't.

And one day there was so was running
through Rosetta or whatever the, yeah.

Darby: Yeah.

And stupid me.

I wanted to like, get
it all running that way.

So like, I remember one specific
thing I had to do is like compile.

because like the Homebrew packages
weren't set up and it was like in

an experimental branch or something.

So it's like, well, that's
what we're using then.

Ethan: Nice.


Darby: Yeah.

Then like, how do you get out of that?

You know, you painted yourself
into a corner with that.

So I got to rip it all out
and upgrade it properly.



well, I'll see if I can give I'll do
my standard, the benchmark of the, the

tests build from it, honestly, which
is what I used to compare the last

year when I was testing is so I was
testing in against a quad core I nine.

And, I never really wrote that up
anywhere, but, that was like the

thing that shifted me over to the
online to begin with, because like

the builds were basically this, like
the one was like a tiny bit faster.

but that was a $4,000 machine
versus a thousand dollar machine.


It was like

Ethan: weight.

Darby: four, four.


The M one was like a thousand bucks.


The air, like that was when they
were cheaper or cheaper last year.

Ethan: Yeah.

Darby: but the I nine
was like so expensive.

and so you think like, okay, well
this is the way this is gonna,

this is going to get better.

And obviously it did this
year, so it's moved that way.

Ethan: Yup.

Darby: Cool.


All right.

Well, what else is going on?

suppose nothing happened
on going this week.

Ethan: no, actually I
got some good stuff done.


yeah, so like last time we talked, I
was having my little, like a moment of

lack of confidence, lack of whatever.

Darby: Yeah.

The, of sorrow.

Ethan: Pissarro.

Yeah, that's what I did.

What I said I was going to do.

I did some writing.

You got two blog posts going.

I managed to set up a way to blog in
glean without writing my own blog engine.

So I was proud of myself for
not falling into that trap.

yeah, the two, actually we
bring them up real quick.

Yeah to going.

The first one is kind of not
like a listicle, but like, like

a bulleted point list of ways
to prevent lifestyle inflation.

Darby: Oh,

Ethan: And then it, the last point that
I talk about is, tracking your finances

and the high level things that you can
track to see if your, Keeping up to date

with inflation or like what's going on.

And then like, that's a segue to be
like, if you want to do this, you

could do this with spreadsheets or
whatever, or you could sign up for glean.

so that, that would be interesting.

And then the other one is this one's
kind of dumb, but it might be kind

of cool too, is talking about the
rule of 72, which is a way that you

can estimate when something will die.

Based off its rate of return.

So like you can use this to estimate
anything like population growth.

You can figure out when a population would
double or in this case, you can figure

out when your investments would double.

Theoretically, very simple has some
like interesting compounding effects,

like the faster something doubles.

That means it'll double more,
and then you have that growth.

But so I'm gonna write up about
that and then create an online

calculator so they can put it into.

Some of your own numbers and then see
how that like impacts you over time.

so there'll be like a free tool
that I could use as a marketing

or landing page in glean.

Darby: Yeah.

That's a good idea.

So then someone would go to this
and say like, I have some investment

that's been getting me, you know, 5%

Ethan: Yep.

Darby: and then it'll just
sorta like chart that out over

Ethan: Yeah.


Darby: years or something.

Ethan: think the way this will work
is, yeah, let's say your, you can put

in your age, so let's say you're 30.

You want to retire when you're
60, you have this dollar

amount at this rate of return.

Here's what it will look
like by the time you retire.

Now, what happens if you add a percentage
on, like, how does that change the growth?

Or if you take away a percentage,
if you move it to a, I don't know,

or what's the right word for this.

Darby: conservative.

Ethan: Yes.

Thank you.

Like I'm more conservative vehicle.

Like, this is what this does,

Darby: Yeah.



Ethan: so it's

Darby: it.

I mean, yeah,

Ethan: yeah, it's like fine.

It's not like super exciting stuff,
but I think I can build on it.

Like I'm thinking I'll just have
a whole set of these free tools.

Darby: It seems like that's kind
of, you sort of see this stuff

in like the finance realm anyway.

I think the thing that I always like
run into with that stuff that it

just is, it feels like banks offer.


It's kind of like here's a
calculator put in your numbers

and do what you want with it.

Like maybe tell me an example, or
like, you know, like, guide me through

this a little bit more instead of just
like, here is here's a calculator.

Like I have a calculator, but you
know, like, give it some context

and tell me like how I should think
about it instead of just like,

well, here's, the number is 3%.

Ethan: Yeah, which I'm

Darby: is, that a good
number of that number?

You know?

Ethan: right.

I'm hoping that's like the
purpose of the blog post.

Darby: Yeah.

Ethan: kind of explaining like
why care about this at all?

Kind of thing.

Darby: Yup.



I think it's a good opportunity to
give it some context instead of just

Like here's a calculator on a screen.


Ethan: And I did, a little bit of
research on it and it's a moderately

competitive, term to rank for.

It gets decent search volume.

I mean, there's a ton of writing
already about it, but it's the only

one I can find that it's like only
moderately difficult instead of.

Very difficult

Darby: Okay.


All right.

Well, that's the right.

That's the right way to start with it
then is at least to go for something

where there's a little less competition.

Ethan: Yup.

Darby: Nice.

Ethan: I'm hoping that at least
one of those is done maybe by

the time this episode airs,

Darby: Okay.

Ethan: I guess if so, I'll
throw it in the show notes.

Darby: Yeah.

Send it to me too.

I'd like to check it out.


Ethan: Cool.

I think

Darby: All right.

Ethan: about it.

Darby: So you got,

Ethan: yeah, that's all I got.

Darby: so lead, honestly, it's been an
interesting, I guess maybe it's been a

couple of weeks now since we've talked.

we talked a lot about
you and I talked about.

Sort of the changing the hat
to marketing and traction and

growth and things like that.

And, and so Shane, I talked about
this a little bit and really I dunno,

I started being a bit more realistic
about like the time commitment of that.

and I dunno, thinking back to sort
of some of the other times that

we've tried to do this a little bit.

You know, you know, it's like,

Ethan: Okay.

Darby: you're, I don't know, you, you
cope from something you're pretty good

at something you know, nothing about.

And you just feel like I have no
idea what I'm doing, so I'm going

to try these things and they're not
going to work and I don't know why.

And so then I'm going to kind
of get discouraged and whatever.


So, so I was kind of like thinking about
that a lot and like, all right, what.

Quickly, ramp up my
knowledge on this stuff.

And then I started like thinking we'll
have, that's just not going to happen.

and maybe the actual thing is like,
find someone that can help with this.

and that, like the that's
like the smart thing to do.

Like as a founder, you gotta realize.

But you're not good at and maybe
find someone to help you with that.

So, so what we actually decided to
do is we actually made a job posting.

It's not very well written at this
point, but, we'll kind of iterate on it.

But, so we're looking to bring in someone
who can basically focus on marketing,

and you know, like, ideally it would be
someone who's kind of done this before,

like at the stage in the company.

and then like is a.

You know, can you kinda like get in
there and like set up the systems?

Cause it's like you build software, you
need a source control, you need tests,

you need hosting all of these things.

You need customer support
tools and things like that.

Like, there's literally nothing on
our marketing side for any of that.

So there's probably a bunch of
tools that need to get set up, like

outside of even just like, you know,
advertising channels and stuff like that.

How are we tracking this stuff?

What does our Google analytics or
whatever that tool is, look like,

you know, I'm like the H reps thing.

Like what keywords are you ranking for?

I dunno.

so like, like get those things in place
and actually like, like a system to

like track that and, you know, test
to the, be able to test like the,

impact of the things that we're doing.

So if we, you know, if we try to add
campaign or something, is that Okay.

Driving new traffic.

Is it driving conversions,
things like that.

you know, just not if it's even set
up so I could spend a bunch of time

trying to figure out how that all
works or spend some time trying to find

someone that can help us with that.

And hopefully is, knows
how to do it already.

So, so that's kind of the goal.

and so I think it would also be nice
to like, have, you know, maybe a

little bit more, I don't know, another
set of eyes, more and more people

involved in the project and stuff.

So, but you know, we've never
raised any money or anything, so

it's not really like a paid job.

So, so the idea is, you know, find
someone that's looking for like maybe

a side project, and, you know, there's.

We can pay a little bit, but it's
probably mostly like equity or,

you know, something like that.

So, you know, finding, finding
someone that wants to like, I

dunno, try something that way.

I also kind of think that might be an
easier, so for a company like us, you

know, even if we had raised money and
we're hiring, like it's so competitive

to hire right now, But if we're asking
for someone to, you know, put in

some nights and weekends time, like,
is that something that people would

be more interested in because they
could do that and keep their day job.

So, so we put a job post up
on AngelList and of six people

that have responded already.

So, that's cool.

Ethan: Oh, wow.

Darby: So I need to reach out
to some of them, and have a few

conversations and see what people think.

So, so yeah, that's I guess
it is a different app.

It's more of like the recruiting hat.

That's actually something
I've done before though.

just for different types of roles.


Ethan: I was gonna, I was going
to ask how you're going to like

rank or gauge or interview,
without having the same skillset,

because everyone I've interviewed
has had the same skillset as me.


So it's kind of, it's easier than

Darby: Yup.

Ethan: you're in a different field and
I'm trying to make sure you know what

you're doing without knowing what you do.

Darby: Yeah.

I think, I think this is a really hard
problem for, you know, founders like this.

Cause like a lot of the people
you end up hiring are doing things

that you don't know how to do.

Like do you imagine some CEO that's
hiring an engineer or something?

so, you know, I think probably my
my initial approach to this and we

haven't really gotten into it yet,
but it'll probably be like, you

know, try to at least like gauge
personality and stuff like that.

Like, I think that's probably important.

and I think like some of the traits
would be more about just like, can

you sort of work without direction?


No, that's maybe like a little
bit more important than being

like a super expert in the field.

but then, you know, maybe actually
have a, find a friend who knows this

stuff and, you know, see if they'd
be willing to just like, do a quick

interview with them or something.

So, but you know, we'll see like
part of it is just getting past, you

know, like if you think of like the.

The series of interviews, you go through
at a company, there's that first one where

you have the call with the recruiter.

That's like, here's how much
the job pays and here's where

the office is or whatever.

And like, that's like a lot of
people filter out at that step.

Cause like, oh no, I need more pay or I
need these kinds of benefits or whatever.

So, so we'll see if we, if anyone
goes past that step, since it's

kind of a non-traditional type.

Ethan: I mean, I assume you put
that in the job description though.

So assuming they read it.

Darby: Yeah, kind of, I mean, like,
I think it needs to be, like I said,

we gotta we'll have to iterate on the
write-up and stuff to probably make it.

more clear.

But, Yeah, I like, I think the first
step is just talking to a few of these

people that have applied into just.

you know, here's what we're looking for.

What should we be saying in here
that would actually speak to that

for someone in your position?

So, so we'll learn a little bit
from these folks too, I think.

Ethan: Yeah, you mentioned.


Just cause you mentioned that there's
no real framework set up already, just

talking through, how would you approach a
green slate marketing framework should be

able to filter some people at that way.

If they don't actually know
what they would do, but.

Darby: You know, the other thing
that I've found interesting just in

the applicants that have come in so
far, you know, I think when you go

through like resumes for engineers,
That's like pretty straightforward.

It's people that have
done engineering work.

like this field seems a bit more broad
in that like, some people are like

more designed focused or brand focused.

and some people are more like,
like growth with growth hacking.

Ethan: Oh,

Darby: some are more like, I dunno like
a corporate, I guess, which I guess like

corporate is kind of like a normal sort
of difference you would see, but yeah,

it seems like there's like a little more
different ways that people approach this.

So like you might say, I'm going
to come in and market and really

do brand building and brand
awareness or someone else might say.

go do your SEO 100%.

so I think, you know, I think there's like
probably like that book traction, right?

There's a whole bunch of different
versions of this kind of person, so yeah.


So it should be interesting.


And so this.

Us chatting right now as a reminder
that I need to go through that

list and reach out to those people,
because I have not done that yet

this week for next week to set up?

some, some time to talk with folks.

Ethan: Cool.

Darby: All right.

Anything else going on?

Ethan: trying to think.


Darby: I have a plans on Saturday
to, to run a half marathon in

Wisconsin so I can go do that.

That'd be real cold.


Ethan: but all right.

Darby: I've done this one several
times and it's, sometimes very

nice and sometimes miserable.

So we'll see.

We'll see what Saturday is.

All right.

Well then I guess that's it.

Ethan: that's it.

Darby: Cool.

See you.

next time.

Ethan: See you.